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Topic Subject:Key to winning #42
Raven36
Member
posted 11-11-03 06:17 PM EDT (US)         
You guys probably don't know this but Knight and O4B said flamethrowers are useless OR are they?

In modern/indust age, coupled with a general and a couple scout cars, sneak into emeny base until you find a unveristy, flame it!! and Out come to scholars, now fry/shoot them, kill those nerds!!

This is a huge blow to the other person's econ (scholars should cost 80-120 wealth )I don't think any "expert" has enough micro to put the scholars back in the university before they die, and his/her knowledge income with drop greatly, after using this set your flamer to raid and kill off villys (he cant garrison them) or search for the next university

-Raven



- - - - _Au_RaveN - - - -

[This message has been edited by Raven36 (edited 11-11-2003 @ 11:29 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
knight101_5
Member
posted 11-11-03 06:53 PM EDT (US)     1 / 28       
There is a bit of a problem with that.

1. Universities by now are deep into enemy territory, meaning you are going to have a difficult time sneaking those by radar towers.

2. This is Modern Age. The enemy has already built up quite a bit of knowledge.

3. It doesn't take too much micro to get more scholars, and you should have lots of wealth to rebuild them. All it takes is uvvuvvuvvuvvuvv.

4. I never said they were useless. I just said that there are better ways of accomplishing what you need to do instead of flamethrowers. If they were upgradeable then things would be different. I'm not sure if they also suffer the 33% additional damage per age.

Sea Biscuit
Member
posted 11-11-03 07:49 PM EDT (US)     2 / 28       
raven- how many flame throwers does it take to take down a university or library in a sufficient amount of time?

isnt it better to use a general and like 6 special forces to blow up the building???

id like to know when and if anyone plays with flame throwers.

I think Ive probably made 4 of them simce i bought the game. they have siege but little else.
only the computer seems to like them

ceohammer
Member
posted 11-11-03 09:25 PM EDT (US)     3 / 28       
Sea, Raven doesn't mean to raze the university. As soon as the flamethrowers hit it, the scholars come out...buildings can't be garrisoned if attacked by flame dudes.

Hammer

half_lotus
Member
posted 11-11-03 10:28 PM EDT (US)     4 / 28       
This is a great idea. I fired up a test game to try it out. Select only your flamethrower to target the Uni, if they try to regarrison they'll be ejected immediately. Two scout cars kill the scholars in about ten seconds. This can be done in Industrial Age. It hurts their knowledge and wealth a lot, both are in high demand late game. With a general you can get in and out quick. Bantu flamethrowers are faster. Scholars can garrison in cities, towers, and forts too.
Sea Biscuit
Member
posted 11-11-03 10:41 PM EDT (US)     5 / 28       
wow.thats interesting... i didnotknowthatthey auto eject whenhitwithflamethrowers.

thats neat.illhaveto remmeber. notmany players i know garrison their units wouldbegoodona tcalso.

Raven36
Member
posted 11-11-03 11:23 PM EDT (US)     6 / 28       
1. that is why you have general(ambush)

2. If you have built up knowledge you should be advancing faster, not playing around in modern

3. Why should you have you have so much wealth, shouldn't you have spent it on resources?

4. no comment


- - - - _Au_RaveN - - - -
knight101_5
Member
posted 11-12-03 00:39 AM EDT (US)     7 / 28       
Radar towers (Observation Posts) would still be able to see your small group. And whatever happened to the other tips? Although I shouldn't really judge a unit I haven't used that much.

They should be upgradeable, hopefully a consideration in X-pack.

I wish they would come up with incendiary artillery, like in Warzone 2100.

TWC_TannenBaum
Member
posted 11-12-03 08:29 AM EDT (US)     8 / 28       
I dont see the point to take his scholars...when all you need to do is send in a small force of a flamie, 5-6 specforc and some machine guns....dont forget the general this will take down a city in seconds...then you can have all the buildings....not just the uni
Out_4_Blood
Member
posted 11-12-03 12:38 PM EDT (US)     9 / 28       
Raven has some reading comprehension problems.

Quote:

You guys probably don't know this but Knight and O4B said flamethrowers are useless...

Here's what I actually said:

Quote:

So what the heck are Flamethrowers supposed to do? The AI makes these guys all the time in SP, but I have yet to (consciously) make these in a competitive MP game. Wouldn't you rather just reduce it with artillery instead of attacking the garrison? I mean, we are talking industrial age here... Does anyone make them, and if so what do you use them for?

I hope everyone notices, I was asking what people use them for, which is far different from saying they are useless.

There's more on this topic.

Arch_Apollyon
Member
posted 11-12-03 01:23 PM EDT (US)     10 / 28       
By that time you should be using v2 rockets to take out universities. Furthermore, any expert would simply use militia or partisan with the ejected scholars. That is why you should attack with your main force first to distract your opponent.

Also ambush sucks, the speeds of units aren't equal so the general will out run the flame thrower. Hence youll need a helluva lot of micro.

And, about separating commandos, if you do that your main force has less commandos and is suscepitiable to an attack, and probably a huge amount of conversion by spies. Plus, a true expert would simply use militia or partisans and kill those troops (commandos dont attack, remember). That is why you can't always do it and should adapt on the fly (do it only when you feel it can be pulled off).

I posted it before but there are two better things to do with flame thowers in my opinion, than tann's position (it can be done sometimes, but not all the time) and raven's position (rather use V2 rockets).

------

I used to make them back in the day when I played a lot. It is micro intensive but they are very useful to stop healing after a mini battle that results in one running away. If the opponent runs away, and garrisons in his rax, or whatever, surround it and ungarrison using the flame thrower, the units will get massacred and are trapped.

Also, in late game raiding, add a flame thrower to scout cars/wagon. So when you attack, send those babies raiding. Hell be very busy defending the attack. He'll ring the bell, you'll attack or pull back depending on the battle field and your thoughts on victory on the main front, but he'll lose all his peons since they cannot garrison. Tee hee.

But i haven't done it in a while ^^. You need to have awesome micro skills. It takes a lot of practice.

TWC_Arch_Apollyon

---

Later,

AA.

PS, experts do have time do a lot of things. Shadowz has time against me to bring spies back to his homebase and convert the units that are raiding. Nothing is cut and dry and everything is counterable.

PPS, raven needs to stop taking base strats and pretending like they are his own.

[This message has been edited by Arch_Apollyon (edited 11-12-2003 @ 01:39 PM).]

Raven36
Member
posted 11-12-03 03:30 PM EDT (US)     11 / 28       
"PPS, raven needs to stop taking base strats and pretending like they are his own"

I never said it was my own ( Raven's ultra stratgey tips) I was just trying to point out something many people would've missed, but if you guys feel that way, I'll stop visiting the RonH stratgey forum =(


- - - - _Au_RaveN - - - -
Out_4_Blood
Member
posted 11-12-03 04:00 PM EDT (US)     12 / 28       
Since you're obviously fishing, I'll bite:

"Don't go, Raven! Please stay! We love you!"

I for one don't care who came up with a strat. If it ain't written down, it's fair game. However, it is a good idea to give credit where credit is due. If you got it from somewhere else. Just say, I saw this in a game against X.

Polly, if you have some notions of where this stuff has originally been discussed, all I can say is: pony up the links! Besides, this is not something I would consider a "base strat," whatever that means.

Oh and one other thing, Raven. If you're going to put words in my mouth, put the RIGHT words. You're welcome to quote anything I might have posted, but QUOTE. And QUOTE ACCURATELY. Don't paraphrase; since you clearly didn't understand what I wrote, I don't trust you with paraphrasing my valuable prose. :-)

thao
Member
posted 11-12-03 05:10 PM EDT (US)     13 / 28       
out4blood said "and about commandos, commandos are a total waste of time and ressources"

well out4blood, youre just a noob so we wont discuss that here

just quoting like i should not ^^

half_lotus
Member
posted 11-12-03 05:36 PM EDT (US)     14 / 28       

Quote:

I dont see the point to take his scholars...when all you need to do is send in a small force of a flamie, 5-6 specforc and some machine guns....dont forget the general this will take down a city in seconds...then you can have all the buildings....not just the uni

This is great for the capitol where you get the +500, but otherwise the damage done will be minimal. Unless you are prepared to send reinforcements the city it will probably be recaptured pretty quickly, and you get nothing. Also this group of troops (5-6 commandos+machine+general) is much more expensive than flamthrower+armored cars. It's a great tactic (which I've used many times to great effect), but is more costly and more risky.

Quote:

By that time you should be using v2 rockets to take out universities. Furthermore, any expert would simply use militia or partisan with the ejected scholars. That is why you should attack with your main force first to distract your opponent.

V2 isnt available until Modern, so this strat comes a bit earlier. And the V2 is doing less harm. You take out his university but he keeps all the scholars. He'll rebuild the uni and stick the scholars back in. It's a hiccup in knowledge gathering, but no damage to their wealth. The strength is in killing all the scholars which cost tons of wealth in late game. It takes two V2s to take out a university, and V2s take up valuable space in silos; you'd rather be building/researching nukes.

Partisons rip up flamethrowers and armored cars pretty fast (militia and minutemen do not), so there's your counter. They would have to react quickly.

Arch_Apollyon
Member
posted 11-12-03 06:20 PM EDT (US)     15 / 28       
sorry i misread your post raven.

Half, about V2, in theory its a hiccup, but when you lose a bunch of universities and you dont know what town lost them and you are being attacked in the main front with spies and snipers and raided with scout cars and a flame thrower so you can't garrison peons in tcs it adds up. V2 rocket takes two seconds to launch if you place the silo in the hotkey. Thus you have to think of stuff in speed and amount of micro to be able to be done. Moreover, who said you can't raid the building afters its blown up, set rally points and launch the sucker? A FT cost about 150/150 at that time unless you dont have a decent army from the rax (which you should), a V2 rocket cost less and is less micro intense.

I can't even do the flamethrower raiding anymore nor do i have the ability to manuenver my siege wagon with raiders, so it takes a LOT of practice, unless im playing a rookie. The V2 rocket is something that needs LITTLE PRACTICE.

Thus in theory if your just that game (which no one is) you can do a helluva lot. But in reality, the v2 rocket is a better strat in my opinion. The time I save I'll use doing something else.

Order of micro management from least to most:

launching a v2 rocket
raiding with scout cars
raiding with scout cars and a flamethrower (set rally points and use the FT to attack the building you want to peons not to able to garrison)
raiding with scout cars and a siege wagon and a FT (you dont have to worry about tc fire for the wagon but you do have to worry about an extra wagon for militia and speed control of units)
raiding with scout cars and a siege wagon (don't let tc fire get in the way, different speeds cause problems as well, and this is more micro than w/ a flame thower).
etc. etc. etc.


---

The base strat O4B is raiding with FT so things cannot garrison in buildings. Plus archibald? had this idea about 7 months ago. And no, i dont have to pony up the links. And also, just because your the first to post about it doesn't mean you made it. If other people are doing it to you, and you're like "wow, this is a great strat, ill make a post and write it up myself and take all the credit," doesn't and shouldn't give you any glory for the strat. You just wrote it.

Also, a slight variation of a strat aint jack either unless it changes the whole strat and isn't common sense. E.g., if I ancient rush and add an archer instead of just 5 pikes, that aint a new strat, even if no one else did it. The base is the same, you just added something thats common sense, and its not cool if you play it off like you made the strat unless you note that you took the base from somewhere else.

[This message has been edited by Arch_Apollyon (edited 11-12-2003 @ 06:26 PM).]

half_lotus
Member
posted 11-12-03 06:55 PM EDT (US)     16 / 28       
Good point about the micro. Yes you can raid after the uni is blown up by V2, but if you're sending a raid as well to get the scholars, then you arent saving in micro time/effort by using a V2. The main factor is the killing of scholars, the V2 doesn't do that.
Arch_Apollyon
Member
posted 11-12-03 07:05 PM EDT (US)     17 / 28       
theres hardly any microing, I set one stable (in teh center of the map usually) as the raiding stable (or factory). Queue raiding force and move waypoints around. Takes two seconds, no micro. I dont even watch wear the units unless I have time. the micro comes in if you have to watch the units (which you do with the FT).

also, a clarification on what I mean with partisans and the counter. If they focus fire on the FT, the FT will die and the units can garrison again (this is another reason why there may be more micro with FT).

Thats why I was say to attack with the main force first, than raid, so he probably won't notice. ^^

[This message has been edited by Arch_Apollyon (edited 11-12-2003 @ 07:07 PM).]

half_lotus
Member
posted 11-12-03 07:43 PM EDT (US)     18 / 28       
I could say it takes two seconds to execute the FT+armored car. Here's how I envision it.

FT+armored cars method:
Move armored car(s)+FT toward Uni, when they get there, attack Uni with the FT. When scholars are dead, you run away.

V2+armored car method:
Rally armored car(s) at the Uni, when they get there, shoot two V2s. When the scholars are dead, you run away.

If you're setting multiple rally points around the map (to multiple Unis for instance) they are going to hit and run, they won't kill many scholars during the drive-by. Furthermore, you would have to time your V2 detonation exactly as the Armored Car drives by. Very difficult!

With either method if you want to kill any significant number of scholars, the Cars need to stand there for a moment. You run away when the scholars are dead, or are converted to Partisons.

Certainly the more simultaneous attacks, the better. I tested it, and Partisons shred both the FT and several Armored Cars in like 2 seconds so its no problem either way.

[This message has been edited by half_lotus (edited 11-12-2003 @ 08:30 PM).]

Raven36
Member
posted 11-12-03 07:52 PM EDT (US)     19 / 28       
I love all this talk about killing scholars

- - - - _Au_RaveN - - - -
Arch_Apollyon
Member
posted 11-12-03 09:00 PM EDT (US)     20 / 28       
Not sayings its impossible all I'm saying is it takes a lot more practice. I only raided with FT when I played about 8 hours a day. V2 rocket is much easier for me, comparatively speaking, but I barely play anymore. And it requires more microing than you think . . . have you tried it? The speeds of FT and scout cars are different, grouping them to a control group, making sure your FT doesn't die, attrition, etc. is a pain in the butt to pay attention to during the heat of the battle.

If you can do it, go ahead and do it. I'd launch the v2 rocket anyways though. On the universities and on his libraries. It takes a while with 1 peon to build a new building. But I haven't used v2 rockets in a long time either b/c that takes practice.

GL,

AA

[This message has been edited by Arch_Apollyon (edited 11-12-2003 @ 09:01 PM).]

Out_4_Blood
Member
posted 11-12-03 09:59 PM EDT (US)     21 / 28       
You can reduce the micro by setting the scout cars to guard one of the FT. Then just send the FT.
Out_4_Blood
Member
posted 11-12-03 10:12 PM EDT (US)     22 / 28       

Quote:

The base strat O4B is raiding with FT so things cannot garrison in buildings.

Okay fine. But I've never seen any examples of people raiding with FT. They are slow and weak against any of the defenses they are likely to encounter. And as you mentioned, it's not very easy to do unless you've got sily micro.

Quote:

Plus archibald? had this idea about 7 months ago.

Ummm, the game wasn't OUT 7 months ago. Hasn't even been out 6 months. If some guy had an idea during the beta phase, well bully for him, but that doesn't really count.

Quote:

And no, i dont have to pony up the links.


If you can't pony up links (i.e., it's NOT easily accessible), well then I can forgive Raven for posting it again. You gotta come down off the high mountain and mingle with the commoners. Not EVERYONE has been playing the game for SEVEN months! Some people just bought it last week.

Quote:

And also, just because your the first to post about it doesn't mean you made it. If other people are doing it to you, and you're like "wow, this is a great strat, ill make a post and write it up myself and take all the credit," doesn't and shouldn't give you any glory for the strat. You just wrote it.


I take it you don't even read the entire post. What does this mean to you?

Quote:

I for one don't care who came up with a strat. If it ain't written down, it's fair game. However, it is a good idea to give credit where credit is due. If you got it from somewhere else. Just say, I saw this in a game against X.


But I will tell you one thing, I'm tired of people b1tching when someone posts some decent strategy. (Even if it is Raven. :-) It takes some time and effort to type stuff up and post it to the web in a coherent manner. People who are new to the game appreciate it. Even people who have been around for awhile but weren't clear on something appreciate it. That's why I say pony up the links! If it's too hard for YOU to find the link, the one who knows where it is located, then how hard is it for the newbie?

This thread is a prime example. If I hadn't griped about FTs then Raven probably doesn't post this. If Raven doesn't post it, we aren't having this conversation and 95% of the newbies reading it would have never thought of raiding with scout cars or FT.

[This message has been edited by Out_4_Blood (edited 11-12-2003 @ 10:16 PM).]

ShadowSun
Member
posted 11-13-03 01:08 PM EDT (US)     23 / 28       
Flamethrowers are surprisingly effective vs. helecopters. I'm not sure why, but people sometimes forget this and it can be used to your advantage.

I'm just a n00b who thinks big...
Fogel Xanadu
Member
posted 11-13-03 05:32 PM EDT (US)     24 / 28       
Flamethrowers do more damage to buildings then people give them credit for. One game a while back we had pretty much one, the other guys had 0 army or eco pretty much, so we were screwing around of course. We were sending in Ft's and other stuff because we never used those alot and 4 ft's or so really put a hurtin on a some fort we ran into. I think I'm going to compare their ability to take down buildings to that of seige later on.
Arch_Apollyon
Member
posted 11-13-03 07:39 PM EDT (US)     25 / 28       
I'll concede to your last point O4B. It does help the community.
Phillistine
Member
posted 11-13-03 09:06 PM EDT (US)     26 / 28       
Well personally I like reading through these strategy threads and I couldn't care less who invented what. I'm new to the game, new to the site and need all the insight I can get. So keep 'em coming, I say.

My Karma ran over my Dogma

AoEH | EEH | RoNH | IndividualsCAN

SeraphLeviathan
Member
posted 11-14-03 01:14 AM EDT (US)     27 / 28       
All right, I think I should add my own two cents to this pile, because I think this is a great strategy. I was playing CTW on tough and was fighting Mongols while I was Japanese, and my reinforcements ended up in their territory, and so they were slaughtered. But I decided to raid some, since they kept on coming and coming, and each time garrisoning saved me (by this time I had conquered North America and South America, not caring about the rest), so I was fighting the Mongols in the Industrial Age, and I needed to raid, cause this guy was whooping me hard. I used the coast to my advantage, the FTs helped me so much.

The FTs (with my armored scout cars and three generals. I also had the card Logistics so no need for Supply Wagons since they were guarding my borders that I seeded with LI since I low on resources and couldn't risk losing them.) So the FTs with my armored scout cars, attack two cities near the coast, killed off many villagers. Every time the villagers garrisoned, my FTs flamethrew the city, and theya ejected, and I killed off as many as 15 villagers in one go. It was great, and as I fled to the sea, (I was now in the Modern Age by the fourth raid) my aircraft carriers whooped any defenders tring to kill my raiders. It was great. The FT is great for quick, immediate raiding, especially with Forced March and air suppport. Give them that air cover, and raiders are very hard to deal with. Eventually I won by Sea Invasion, but I would've been creamed if I hadn't have been able to use the FTs, since the cities would've weakened my troop. The FTs saved the day... and they really are good against Helis...

worldtraveler11
Member
posted 11-15-03 01:18 PM EDT (US)     28 / 28       
Raven is right !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The flamies are awesome. Have you ever heard of Anti-personel? The flamies kick a-- against buildings,infantry, and all armored vehicles.

Never be caught in a battle without some!


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