You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

RoN Strategy for Beginners
Moderated by alincarpetman

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.30 replies
Rise of Nations Heaven » Forums » RoN Strategy for Beginners » The initial scout pattern.
Bottom
Topic Subject:The initial scout pattern.
« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
WhiskeyPete
Member
posted 12-04-03 06:08 PM EDT (US)         
Scouting as we all know is a very important activity. We also know the start or first few minutes of a game are also critical. Not as much so as in other games but still they do have a large level of importance.

Scouting is one of those initial actions you take at the start of a game.

There is three maybe four functions of scouting that occurs at the start of the game:

1. Scouting for Ruins
2. Scouting to see what your opponent is doing
3. Scouting for 2nd city placement
4. Scouting for rares

When I first started playing RoN my initial response to scouting was to make a ever-widening circle pattern to scout. My hope was that I would grab some ruins close by quickly and also get to see where I should build my next city. Currently I have more of a go to the nearest corner and then move towards the enemy.

I believe there is quite a bit of room for improvement on my initial scouting. The list above shows my current priority in what functions I value in the initial scouting.

As you all know by now, I don't answer questions so much as ask old or new questions with a different tint on them.

Let us assume for the questions below that you are not going to rush, you are not looking to perform and all out border push, you are not looking to perform very large amounts of raiding as quickly as possible. For the questions below assume you will do a standard build with small variations as needed. Nothing extreme. Even if you see your enemy build 2 wonders before classical you will not jump on them with an army.

1. Is the current list of functions of scouting I have complete?
2. Is the priority of these functions correct?
3. Is the use of villagers to scout economical?
4. Is there a pattern of scouting that you believe will net more ruins than others when on a random land map?
5. Are there set patterns to where ruins are located based on map type (i.e. do you do a circle pattern on old world but in the med you zig zag, or is it more specific than this?)?
6. Assuming you place your second city badly because of poor scouting doesn't it still hold a certain amount of strategic value (as in most forward position) so how large of a loss is that?
7. Is there a set time to cut-off ruin gathering and just focus on scouting the enemy? When is it?
8. Is searching your opponents side of the map first a good strat?
9. How many ruins are needed to recomp getting sci2 right out of the gate?
10. How many ruins are needed to find to justify building an early barrack and second scout?
11. Is the benefit of any rare worth putting off scouting your opponent? If so, what rare?


Ahh, gotta hit the office X-mas party or I would attempt to write down a few more questions or maybe even answer one or two of the ones above.


Have fun out there,

WhiskeyPete

AuthorReplies:
half_lotus
Member
posted 12-04-03 08:33 PM EDT (US)     1 / 30       
This is a good topic for discussion. I don't scout with citizens, but I think its a good idea. On Himilayas expecially, you can have a citizen scout the small path behind the trees on the edge(there are often ruins there). This frees up your scout to use his larger LOS in the center of of the map. Having your scout run between all the small crevices in forests is a waste.
War
Member
posted 12-04-03 09:10 PM EDT (US)     2 / 30       
I don't like scouting with citizens, it's a waste of their work rate and they can't see their own hand in front of their face so it's a heavy micro task.

I always scout my opponant first thing to spot the rush or fast raid.

G0dSpiral
Member
posted 12-04-03 10:18 PM EDT (US)     3 / 30       
>> Is the use of villagers to scout economical?

Probably very much so. If you look at it just in ruin payoffs, you have to add the potential of denying them to the opponent.

>> How many ruins are needed to recomp getting sci2 right out of the gate?

If you are talking about delaying civ1 and other spending so you can wiggle 3 straight wealth rares, I'm not sure if it even pays off for spain. Benefits are 35/rare, cheaper upgrades, costs 240 + delays in revenue collection. Another way to look at the costs is just the 120 food, because you have nothing else to spend the gold on early. And another way of looking at it, that makes sci2 more attractive is that you will be getting it eventually anyway, so the costs are only interest-like prepayment penalty. I'm unsure how to quantify the extra costs of buying something at the 5 minute mark rather than at 7 minutes or the 10 minute mark.

>> How many ruins are needed to find to justify building an early barrack and second scout?

108 food / 170 wood / 50 gold could be made up with 6 ruins, but considering you could use 3 citizens for just about the same food cost alone, and they could be sent out quicker and cover more ground, and it doesn't look like an alternative worth considering.

Out_4_Blood
Member
posted 12-04-03 11:27 PM EDT (US)     4 / 30       
half_lotus
Member
posted 12-04-03 11:52 PM EDT (US)     5 / 30       
Regarding your last question (scout for rares, or scout the opponent), I generally scout my own territory first because I hate missing rares right next to me, and if I have diamonds or gems or sugar I definitely want to get a merchant on it asap. But you can't underestimate the importance of scouting the opponent, so avoid scouting him at your own peril.

If I have salt (or silver which gives metal/wealth) I sometimes make a second scout relatively early, especially on big or hard to scout maps.

Spain's two scouts and bigger LOS means they can cover the entire map in about 4 minutes, and devote the rest of their time to scouting the opponent. Plus the revealed rares, and revealed ruins in your territory.

Maya is basically immune to any attack before medeival age, so you can scout solely for ruins/rares without worrying about a rush.

Sea Biscuit
Member
posted 12-05-03 00:44 AM EDT (US)     6 / 30       
if you can hit sci 2 rightoff the gun.. well,more power to you... youll save oncommerce and civicresearch .noproblems there.

as for using cits toscout... bad idea. imo... i veseen some really good players do it and ithink it is a waste. they have the Poorest L.O.S and likely walk right by ruins without grabbing them..
make a 2nd scout if that is your priority..if it is a big mapitwill probably payoff....

if i see a ruin that my scout is far away from,ill often send a cit to pick it up... that is themost i will do scounting with cits..

El_Capitan_
VIP
posted 12-05-03 05:46 AM EDT (US)     7 / 30       
Usually, I'll always scout with at least one villie, sometimes two. Other times, I'll have villies scouting in tandom. Meaning if I'm pop capped in a certain resource, and nearby are some dark places I've never scouted before, then I usually go scout there until my villie can be useful again to collect resources.

In typical games, I send a villie straight towards my nearest corner, and my scout in my farthest corner. If I can't see a 2nd timber spot for my 2nd city, then I'll send my scout or a 2nd villie to scout my borders to see the best spot to place my 2nd city. Preferably in the direction of my enemy.

Not often, but whenever I have a feeling my enemy may try to do an Ancient age rush with Heavy Infantry... like if the opponent picked Japanese; or if my opponent has a Random nation, I'll send the first villie straight at my opponent to see what he's doing, and what nation he has.

Scouting to get as many ruins as you can is good, and it takes a bit of micro, but more important is what you want to get from the ruins. Many players just randomly get whatever they get just by finding the ruin. That's fine, but certain build orders/strats need fine tuning, and scouting is essential.

I always time my ruins whenever I spot one before either my scout or villie gets it. Many people think it's lack of macro, but it's not. I'm waiting. Waiting for a certain resource to become the lowest... either by manipulating the city by queuing up villies, or by building a farm or researching something that takes up timber, etc. Everything is planned for how I want to start my game.

Fast Classical raid or rush... I need at least 2 or 3 Ruins, and always food.

Ancient Age Heavy Infantry rush... I need usually 4 or 5 Ruins, and either food or timber, but most of the time, food.

Booming start 1/2/2/2 before Classical, I need around 6 or 7 Ruins in order to get to Classical around 5 minutes. I need Food or Timber, and never Wealth. The only time I need Wealth from Ruins is when I'm doing my Greek fast 2/1/2/2 Medieval... which I can usually get in around 5 minutes, and with a few heavy cavalry ready for raiding.

The only time I'll scout with 2 or more villies is when I'm going against the Spanish. The more ruins you find, the more you take away from your Spanish opponent's civ bonus. The Spanish will probably send one scout forward, one scout in the far corner, and a villie in the near corner. that means you need to scout your corners first, and your borders, plus the inside pockets.

[This message has been edited by El_Capitan_ (edited 12-05-2003 @ 05:48 AM).]

G0dSpiral
Member
posted 12-05-03 08:56 AM EDT (US)     8 / 30       
About the city placements,

I'm not sure delaying the second city placement by scouting for resources outside your visible territory is good. Especially if you see something useful on your side of the border and generally towards the center. If you don't see anything, I'd rather put the 2nd city dead center, or maybe somewhere there's a few trees on the edge (and hope for big forest) than sweep around the outside of your border first.

3rd city is important too. On a lot of maps there is a goody pile in the center. Making sure you can reach it with your 3rd is more important than where you put your 2nd.

After more thought on investment payback in RoN,

Usually the question is not is it worth buying something, bur rather what something is worth most to buy now.

More on scout/ruin micro,

As long as you get wood or food early, you're gettin a good deal, so an alternative to microing your scout to manipulate one or the other, is to spend all your food and wood ASAP. If you end up with too much wood, you can build an extra market for example.

Its wealth rares that seem to give greeks too slow a classical, and makes them a struggle to play against fast rading strategies.

[This message has been edited by G0dSpiral (edited 12-05-2003 @ 09:08 AM).]

War
Member
posted 12-05-03 09:46 AM EDT (US)     9 / 30       

Quote:


Ancient Age Heavy Infantry rush... I need usually 4 or 5 Ruins

That is truly amazing if you can rely on this, for a HI rush top priority is scouting the enemy, you can expect your scout to pick up one on the way, maybe two with a little luck. To find 4-5 before 3 minutes when you have scouted your opponent is hard to imagine thoug a villager in the corner could help here. I find it prudent ot plan your rush on the assumption you find no ruins (it happens sometimes).

Do you got Sci 1 with your HI rushes El_Capitan_?

Out_4_Blood
Member
posted 12-05-03 11:08 AM EDT (US)     10 / 30       
From the games I've watch EC goes SCI1 MIL1.
War
Member
posted 12-05-03 11:36 AM EDT (US)     11 / 30       
I had a play with that when I was investigating rushes, I decided it was too risky because you relied on finding the ruins to keep your rush on time. Perhaps I should look again. Is EC a good rusher? What times are the Sci 1 Mil 1 rush hitting?
Out_4_Blood
Member
posted 12-05-03 12:03 PM EDT (US)     12 / 30       
Well, I think the difference is not so much in time, but rather that it doesn't set you back as much economically. Yea it IS slower, but you're better able to research the other techs while you're attacking and you're not losing out on the resources from ruins relative to the other guy.

It's less of a knockout punch than it is a resource equalization strategy.

Against expert play it might not be that effective, but he did beat Richter's Koreans with it.

El_Capitan_
VIP
posted 12-05-03 01:54 PM EDT (US)     13 / 30       
Yeah, I go Sci 1 first every game, no matter what, including rushes.

Here's my Ancient Age Heavy Infantry technique.

Queue up 3 villies, put them on timber. While doing that, research Sci 1 and then Mil 1. The 3rd villie that is queued, don't put him on timber, but have him move towards the furthest area in your land to build your barracks when your timber reaches 120. With your scout, scout the nearest corner (don't pick up any ruins yet!). When you build your barracks, then pick up a ruin. Then build 2 farms, and queue up 2 more villies or however many until you have 5 farms and at least 5 villies on timber.

With your scout, sweep around from your nearest corner over your outside border while queueing up Heavy Infantry in your barracks. I usually go with 4 Heavy Infantry and 1 Slinger for light rushes, but nowadays I've been going with 5 Heavy Infantry and 3 Slingers. With the villie that was building the barracks, you can either scout to enemy territory with it, or scout around for ruins.

P.S. Sometimes I'll even bring my scout to the enemy capital if I know my rush will surprise them. That means I'll need 2 villies scouting for ruins. The reason for this is to see where my opponent is building his barracks. If I can spot it in time, I can send 1 Heavy Infantry and 3 Slingers to attack it while it is in the process of being built, thus stopping their defensive maneuver completely.

Getting four or five ruins at this point helps this rush, and right after you're done making your units, start booming by getting a 2nd city up first. If you do take your enemy's Capital, but didn't get your own 2nd city up, you're very much delayed until the enemy ends up taking the capital back.

If you can't get the capital, don't worry. If you noticed your enemy spending a lot of resources, you might be in the clear. However, experts who defend these rushes only expend the minimal amount of resources neccessary to defend this rush, which means 2 foot archers and either a slinger, some villies, or a heavy infantry.

As far as city placement goes, I always want my 2nd City to be an economical one. That means I want my 5 farms there, and a great timber spot, and possibly a mountain. I rarely want my 3rd city to have anything other than a mountain because that's the city most likely to get attacked, and thus if that goes down with having the majority of my resource relied being in that city, well I just got hurt really, really bad.

I just like having a buffer (in regard to my 2nd and 3rd city placements), and a backup plan (in case my rush fails). Any strategic plan gone wrong against an expert usually means you've lost, but you can find opponent's weaknesses and strengths by playing games where you rush them. I rushed PCA_Frogman in a rated game before the BHS tourney with the (random) Romans, and he defended it like it was nothing. He never panicked, and sent his villies to take out my slingers while his 2 archers picked off my heavy infantry. Thus I knew it was not wise to attack him early with him being Spanish (can't even think of rushing a Maya).

Just about everyone I've played, I've pretty much rushed. I've certainly won more than I lost (but lost more than I won vs. good players), but finding out their strengths and weaknesses will come in handy for future games.

Out_4_Blood
Member
posted 12-05-03 02:36 PM EDT (US)     14 / 30       
G0dSpiral
Member
posted 12-05-03 03:17 PM EDT (US)     15 / 30       
Thanks for posting Captain,

>> As far as city placement goes, I always want my 2nd City to be an economical one. That means I want my 5 farms there, and a great timber spot, and possibly a mountain. I rarely want my 3rd city to have anything other than a mountain because that's the city most likely to get attacked,

Is that includnig maps like Mesa and Sahara where the big wood pile is in the center, and there is little other wood? Do you instead look for another clump of trees even if it means building your 2nd city sideways?

War
Member
posted 12-05-03 05:00 PM EDT (US)     16 / 30       
I find timing to be very important in a rush. El_Capitan_ what time does your standard 4/1 rush and your recent 5/3 rush start banging on his capital?
El_Capitan_
VIP
posted 12-05-03 06:55 PM EDT (US)     17 / 30       
G0dSpiral: In those map types, there's usually a good clump of trees in the corners, and it's not a bad decision to place your 2nd city sideways. You have to realize, if your opponent gets a 2nd city with no timber by building forward, he'll have a slower economical start until he gets his 3rd city that has timber, plus his 3rd city will be a vital economic city, and you can put pressure there. If you ever manage to take his city, he'll be in a bad position economically.

Sometimes I'll even sacrifice good economy in favor of a strong border push. The object is to force your opponent to hunker down, and put pressure on his outside cities. You'll see many aggressive players do this, but passive players like me usually favor economy and counter defenses. It's all about how you want to play the game.


War: The 4/1 and 5/3 hits the enemy at about the same time, around the 3:00-3:30 mark. 5/3 just makes it so you can take the capital down quicker, and the enemy has to spend a lot more resources in order to fend off the rush. The drawback with the 5/3 is that your opponent will usually have to have a decent-sized army, and you might want to watch out for a counter-rush attack. With the 4/1, it's usually not going to take the capital, and if it does, your opponent will only need one foot archer to take them all down, along with some villies.

Endurence_uk_
Member
posted 12-06-03 12:53 PM EDT (US)     18 / 30       
would sending a villie to auto-explore and sending the scout to mark out the enemy be a good idea??? spain are looking stronger these days
War
Member
posted 12-06-03 10:17 PM EDT (US)     19 / 30       
Auto-explore is never a good idea
Endurence_uk_
Member
posted 12-07-03 07:24 AM EDT (US)     20 / 30       
auto-explore send the unit to explore the area you control right? so if you expand quick it will stay in your terroity before exploring elseware?
half_lotus
Member
posted 12-07-03 08:07 AM EDT (US)     21 / 30       
I sometimes put the scout on auto-explore while I'm raiding, so I can raid effectively and still build my economy quick.
War
Member
posted 12-07-03 09:03 AM EDT (US)     22 / 30       
Just queue up waypoints for him to keep him busy. I usually do that but set a final waypoint back to my military so that sometime around gunpowder (if he is still alive) he will be there to help kill spies.
Fogel Xanadu
Member
posted 12-07-03 10:47 AM EDT (US)     23 / 30       
Thats not why auto explore sucks endurance. auto explore sucks because it uses a circular pattern, which doesn't effectively use all of the scouts LOS. You get more bang for your buck just queue'ing up waypoints. You just gotta learn to not leave your scout idle.
ceohammer
Member
posted 12-08-03 06:45 AM EDT (US)     24 / 30       
I like to use auto-explore for a ville after a bit as he will seek out those nooks and crannies that I missed around my cities. Also I'll use autoexplore for my first Light Horse cuz he covers the ground so quick. One difference for auto-explore for these types is that the unit WILL pick up the ruins it spots.

Hammer

Fogel Xanadu
Member
posted 12-08-03 09:54 PM EDT (US)     25 / 30       
yeah, auto exploring a villie is pretty smart in my opinion. I used to do it alot but I've been slacking lately. I also played koreans alot back in the day and they always have villies out the ass.
« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Rise of Nations Heaven | HeavenGames