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Topic Subject: BHG, PLEASE tell me you fixed this!
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posted 04-18-03 12:19 PM EDT (US)   
Ok, played a game today with 2 of my friends vs. 3 new guys we never met (think they were german?). Anyways, they decide to rush.

By the 3 min mark japanise has 5 (unique)heavy infantry+1 archer attacking my friends capitol. THREE MINUTES?!!? I go back to look at the replay. All the guy did was build 2 villagers, have them build farms, research military, build a barracks with a 3rd villager, then pump out units. THAT'S IT! How is that strategy? Game over in 3 minutes? We're building our 2nd city and this guys attacking? Please tell me something's been done about this japanise rush after beta 3


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Replies:
posted 04-21-03 09:36 PM EDT (US)     76 / 128  
Winning the beta and not getting it yet is sort of annoying. I'm still waiting for it since it's been announced for some time that the gamespot winniers were anounced. I won but I apparantly haven't received it yet.

Anyway since I went of the subject there, It's nice to know that beta 2 is not so far from beta 3. Asdide from the apparent crashes and bugs that i've heard about I'm hoping I'd enjoy the beta before release.


How wmany people online that have beta 2? Approx.?

posted 04-21-03 09:44 PM EDT (US)     77 / 128  
Well, tbh there are very few people on-line at all, I think most don't realise that the on-line game setup doesn;t work so you have to arrange an IP game, so people just give up.

THe not shipping the beta from contests does seem to be a common problem over the last few months, I got my beta 2 cd quite soon but had to wait ages for my beta place login.

As far as teh differences from beta 2 to beta 3 go, apart from stability. The interface screens (menus, options and game setup) are a lot more professional with better options, beta 2 has a lot fo incomplete graphic sets (particularly at low detail) and the frame rate of the beta 3 is improved. You can watch recorded games in 3. As far as the actual game goes there is little different between the two. Beta 3 seems more polished than AOM release

posted 04-22-03 00:32 AM EDT (US)     78 / 128  
hmmmm......they should have done an online mp test of it as well cuz thats where u really point out imbalances
posted 04-22-03 08:21 AM EDT (US)     79 / 128  
True, but then that is no guarantee either, it's only after a game has been played by thoushands for a a couple of months (or more) do killer strategies emerge. AOM had a very big multiplay test and yet have had to released 5 balance patches and another promised.
posted 04-22-03 08:41 AM EDT (US)     80 / 128  
On the subject of BHG's balance testing, this came up in the Dec 02 Wargamer interview with Brian Reynolds:

Quote:

WG: Balance is very important in strategy games, especially with so many different nations and special units. How hard has it been to balance the game with 18 different nations? ...

BR: Balancing the nation powers has been one of the most interesting aspects of developing Rise of Nations. Our goal with each of the nations is to have a package of powers that deal with a common theme and suggest a strategy without locking the player into a path they must follow. For balancing, we have pretty much relied on a brute force method - we have a big spreadsheet that tracks victories for each nation versus every other nation, and the playtesters and designers pound away on them until a meaningful trend shows up. Although it's been time intensive, this is a lot of fun.

posted 04-22-03 10:28 AM EDT (US)     81 / 128  
Turks are best in the instant-gunpowder attack. Rush as fast as you can to gunpowder (while building your econ and military of course) and attack with 5 seige and upgrade your units as you fight. Turk seige in gunpowder/enlightenement is GODLY so use it while you have it! If turks don't win a good portion of the map before industrial they loose half their advantage (longer range artilery and fast assimilation still make them useful though).

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posted 04-22-03 12:02 PM EDT (US)     82 / 128  
A couple of design thoughts we worked from in balancing rushing in Ancient Age--

* Obviously we don't want ancient age rushing to become the predominant strategy in a game about all of history.

* But since we were providing military units in Ancient Age we figured they ought to be useful for something. Also a lot of players -like- to be able to attack early (or at least not have to wait 15 minutes before locking horns with the other player)

* The lowest-common-denominator rush of "Take a Military, build a Barracks, start churning out military units" is really easy to do so it should be really easy to counter. But we intentionally tuned it to work if the opponent has done -nothing- to prepare, because we figure that's the lowest-common-demoninator boom strategy (completely ignore military and defense) which is also easy to do, and equally pernicious to the game if not easily counterable.

* To answer another question on the thread we tried allowing attrition in Ancient Age but that pretty much killed all early attacking--gave the defender way too much of an advantage, and everyone just teched to gunpowder every game.

* We figured it isn't a "right" to be able to afford to get a second city up right away, especially one positioned directly toward the enemy. There are some good strategies that involve a slightly delayed approach to expansion or a second city placed away from the main enemy approach route.

* Of course some players don't want to even have to think about the rush so we provide the No Rush rules. You can also play larger map sizes (or more obstructed maps like Mediterranean or a full-on sea map).

FWIW, most of our designers are "boomers" by personality anyway, so it's sort of funny to find myself in a discussion of rushing being so scary. Really we've found toward the end that our games tend to have a nice distribution between those which end early and those that end late (with a bunch ending in huge Enlightenment Age battles and quite a few in Modern and Information Age)

Personally I find I can defeat any Ancient Age rush including Japanese if I have a Barracks up by the time it gets there--because I can pump out a couple archers in time to turn the tide (and yeah, like Paul I maximize them by popping them in and out of the town on different sides). Even if the city falls for a while that can be okay.

If no attack shows up, I don't have to build the military yet so I've only spent the money for the Barracks and Military tech--which I'll need eventually anyway, I'm just building them early for peace of mind.

Finally (and to answer another thread question), we're completely committed to providing balance patches if we perceive certain strategies to be degenerate (completely dominating the game without reasonable couter-strategies). For myself I think that trying to avoid balance patching is a bad goal--some of the most successful RTS games are the ones with the most balance updates. We've balanced Rise of Nations as well as we think conceivably possible in 2 years of work including a 6-month all-balance-all-the-time marathon toward the end, but we know that in successful and often-played games strategies continue to evolve significantly long after the game is released. By continuing to balance the game after release we can respond to the evolution of new strategies (and higher skill levels of players). Of course we'll only "nerf" strategies that we perceive to be truly degenerate, not simply ones that are liked by many players and disliked by others.

Have fun!

Brian

posted 04-22-03 01:10 PM EDT (US)     83 / 128  
Wow Brian, I've never really thought about the ideas of appealing to both early attackers and those that liek to boom without worrying about an attack. Now I can see why attrition was not included in the ancient age. One thing I remember doing in AOK as a defender is to work my economy toward making a barracks early and advance to feudal as fast as I could if I anticipate a rush. Usaully it's successful enough to fight off the rush but it was hard to do.

Sounds like with equally skilled players early attacks aren;t all out wins. it's funny i've read a post on www.mrfixitonline.com 's rise of nations forum that he didn't like the game anymore becasue you can't all out win when you attack early. He mentioned that early attacks were "petty". unless your enemy is new to the game you can;t win outright. Sounds promising to me. At least it will level the playing field.

After reading your post and reading other peoples commnents, it sounds like the early attack will be really risky. As it should be.

Now if I only get the beta in the mail already. SHEEEESH!

posted 04-22-03 01:53 PM EDT (US)     84 / 128  
Great post Brian, thanks for that.

However, picking up on one point you made

Quote:

But we intentionally tuned it to work if the opponent has done -nothing- to prepare

I have tested this several times and even if you have no military line researched it is still too easy to get it and defend the early rush. Can any of your balance testers succeed in a rush even against a totally committed boomer?

posted 04-22-03 02:05 PM EDT (US)     85 / 128  

Quote:


Can any of your balance testers succeed in a rush even against a totally committed boomer?

Oh very yes!

Brian


posted 04-22-03 02:30 PM EDT (US)     86 / 128  
Okay, I'll try to improve my rushing skills
posted 04-22-03 07:10 PM EDT (US)     87 / 128  
Ok.I havnt played the beta but I anxiosly read the whole forum.these 3 minute rushes seem like theres only a few units involved (5 or so).Can vills in RoN attack? If its a small group ^ you should be able to take them out with vills, then send all your counters straight to him.Hell have no military, thus you will kill his economy, forcing him to resign.Can you garrison units in cites like the AOK TC early on for defence?If so, use your counters to retreat so the TC fires upon the enemy, increases your chances of surivival without sacrificing your econemy at all.I've also seen the Maya's bonus (Buildings fire un-garrisoned) Wont that help at all?It seems like these early on rushes are very easy to handle to me.With the whole new territory thing going, it bisically eliminates forward building so he's gonna take some time to get his troops to your side of the map.Those units have a downfall, Your constantly training units without the need to send the across a map, so you'll have em' in a nice big bundle while his units will be outnumbered,then hell send the (The ones he was training in the meantime) other units over.He'll realize that just isnt gonna work and have to try and catch up to your economy.Also, are there no walls in RoN?(I would sure miss them!)

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posted 04-22-03 07:14 PM EDT (US)     88 / 128  
ya villagers can attack and garrison in towns that will shoot arrows etc...but u have to research militias for the villagers to be effective, else they'll just be karate chopping people while they get hacked by a sword or shot down. also as far as garrisoning to defend rushes...you are loosing valuable production time, while the rusher's econ continues to hum along, and thats the real damage.

ya i wished there were walls too...just to hide my archers behind some barricades

[This message has been edited by One_Dead_Angel (edited 04-22-2003 @ 07:16 PM).]

posted 04-22-03 07:21 PM EDT (US)     89 / 128  
Villagers need an upgrade to be able to attack.
You can garrison (bell) in the city where they will fire
Cities do not auto fire (except one civ)
There are no walls

It is VERY easy to defeat because the 3 min rushers economy is none existant so a couple of counter units sorts it. I have yet to succeed in a 3 min rush even against a totally un prepared opponent though I will keep trying as Brian Reynolds says people can do it. Losing the walls was a little jolt at first but it's a different game and walls would either slow things down or just be ineffective.

posted 04-22-03 09:13 PM EDT (US)     90 / 128  
they said the game would be unbalanced if they had walls with walls and attrition it would be way to defensive
posted 04-22-03 09:31 PM EDT (US)     91 / 128  
I have a few gameplay Q's for the people with the LATEST beta.....

1) Can you build an archer and a musketeer in gunpowder age?

2) This one's a suggestion.... Is Bantu in the beta? If it is it looks like a great rusher civ... Way cheaper towns, faster units, and I forgot what else . But they look like they dont have any mid-or late for the matter potential... Just a suggestion.

3) I hear units come in threes(some) .Does this work as they are paired and fire same time or can you seperate the threesome?

4) Oh yeah and.... I CANT WAIT TO GET MY COPY!


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I am life.I am luxury.I am the envy, that brings such ugly.I dont have a two-way, nor a cell-phone.My thoughts do not touch yourself alone.I am society.I strive to be the positive inside me.My opinion's are lively, used to describe me.Look at your negative, and how you live it.Dismiss the explicit in your mind and visit the bright side of community, and how you enrich it.
I am the Luxuries of Life, therefor my Life is Luxury
posted 04-22-03 09:36 PM EDT (US)     92 / 128  
I keep on hearing about this attrition and it's just taking attackings appeal so much... How bad is it really?
I know about the supply cart but, thats literaly a DRAG.
Do your units just wither and die with attrition, or do your enemies just do a little bonus damage when your units are hit?


P.S. What fun is winning peacefully???!KILL ALL!


|My Site|Recs|SaM|-Fenrir_Ghost - Matches - Challenge Me
I am life.I am luxury.I am the envy, that brings such ugly.I dont have a two-way, nor a cell-phone.My thoughts do not touch yourself alone.I am society.I strive to be the positive inside me.My opinion's are lively, used to describe me.Look at your negative, and how you live it.Dismiss the explicit in your mind and visit the bright side of community, and how you enrich it.
I am the Luxuries of Life, therefor my Life is Luxury
posted 04-22-03 10:47 PM EDT (US)     93 / 128  
I just hope that using a minimal defense strategy like Brian Reynolds suggested doesn't put you at a big disadvantage to a no-defense boomer.
posted 04-23-03 00:32 AM EDT (US)     94 / 128  
1) You can build a crossbow and an arqubustier (sp?) in the gunpowder age (musketeer is enlightenment). Crossbows disapeer in enlightenement if i remember correctly.

2) They have cheaper towns, a population boost, and don't have to research military to upgrade units (still have to research it to build barracks though). The cheaper towns make for a good early boomer, but not a rusher. Same with military tech. Bantu can research 2 military techs and then forget about it for a while until they reach the cap. This means they get a bunch of extra food (not being spent on military research) and time at the library (probably used to age up faster). Not a good rusher civ (like aztecs or japs) because their unique is *light* infantry, which sucks at taking down buildings.

3) Units come in threes but they move and fire independantly (yet they are always near each other). They move as a semi-group and fire at their own targets (unless you tell it to fire at a specific unit) so the battles look REALLY kickass. Enlightenment battles are AWSOME to watch, the musketeers all fire independantly and there's a cloud of smoke in front of them after they fire, it's really cool!.

A bunch of groups all firing at the same time would look kinda corny :\


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posted 04-23-03 11:10 AM EDT (US)     95 / 128  
The battles look pretty cool due to the size and varied types of armies you can control.Are they over relativly fast or do they last a bit long?

I particularly like strategy games that are swords and bows only... Is there any way I can limit the game to -Ancient---Medevil?

How do citizens work? Are they much likethe ones in AOK where youd click a tree and they would gather that tree or do you click a sawmill and they garrison inside and produce a constant supply of wood?

(I think I've played a minature of RoN back in like 1999..I cant remember it's name but it was not a civilization or a sid mier's game..If anybody else remembers can you tell me)


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I am life.I am luxury.I am the envy, that brings such ugly.I dont have a two-way, nor a cell-phone.My thoughts do not touch yourself alone.I am society.I strive to be the positive inside me.My opinion's are lively, used to describe me.Look at your negative, and how you live it.Dismiss the explicit in your mind and visit the bright side of community, and how you enrich it.
I am the Luxuries of Life, therefor my Life is Luxury
posted 04-23-03 11:43 AM EDT (US)     96 / 128  
Battles take a good ammount of time, probably similer in time to AoK.

You can play the game from whatever age you want to start to whatever age you want to end (set beforhand) and even in just a single age (say midieval to midieval).

You put citizens in a mine/woodcutters camp/farm and they start working, but are still on the screen (don't disapeer inside the building) for you to click and move elsewhere. Sort of a cross between "production building" and "click trees to get wood."


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posted 04-23-03 02:15 PM EDT (US)     97 / 128  
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is lingers. How effective are they at taking out villagers? On thing has been a trend in AOK/AOC is the skirmishers. I've always seen packs of them. As I understand it focus firing is not as effective as it is in AOK. (Which is the best thing I've heard.

What exactly has been done with focus firing?

posted 04-29-03 05:01 PM EDT (US)     98 / 128  
The classic discussion in an RTS game. To rush, or not to rush. I think in all RTS games there should be a possibility for a rush. I think the threat of a rush makes the early game much more interesting. If you know you are safe for say 10 minutes, you can just boom and not worry about anything but econ/expan (And if you want to play like that, you can in RoN with No Rush settings).

With that said, if the defender does his part in planning for an incomming rush, then the chance of it succeeding should be greatly reduced. In addition, and more importantly, the failed rusher should be at a moderate to significant disadvantage for failing to do at least some damage.

Also it shouldn't take an all out defensive effort to stop a rush, just good early scouting and a little time spent early on, on at least some military. Even if you just get a barracks up quick so that you can start pumping units as soon as your scout finds the enemy. If you are skipping military all together to get faster age times and expanding, well then you deserve to lose to a 3 minute rush.

Scouting is SO important, the faster you find your enemy, the faster you know what to build to counter what they are doing. If you just sit in your town and hope that they dont attack early, or that you can just out boom them, you are asking for trouble.

I love the idea that my opponent might be going for a massive rush, or an all out econ build, or a more balanced steady build. The only way for me to know and plan my build appropriately is to find him ASAP and counter.

posted 04-29-03 11:54 PM EDT (US)     99 / 128  
But the rush in RoN comes before you can even scout your enemy, which is why i was a bit appalled.

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posted 04-30-03 01:13 AM EDT (US)     100 / 128  
"But the rush in RoN comes before you can even scout your enemy, which is why i was a bit appalled."

I've not found that to be the case. If the map has us close enough for you to fast-rush me (ie not a island map or some other crazy setup) then I'm close enough to you to determine who you are and if you are fast-rushing me in time to mount a successful defense. A fast-rush is easy to spot in a number of ways. Often the position of the borders alone is enough to tip me to a fast-rush.

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